The answer I'm trying to send, but Facebook is having Inbox Errors right now.

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(Dear Friend,) So I've been thinking about this email exchange all morning, and trying to figure out how to address it better.

On this one issue, I think that there's still a chasm between the prevailing two opinions. (1) There are Christians who are against gays, based on their reading of the Bible. (2) There are Christians who are supportive of gays, based on their reading of the Bible. (3) There are Jews who are against gays, based on their reading of the Bible. (4) There are Jews who are supportive of gays, based on their reading of the Bible.

So you have a four-part chart: (A) Those who read the Bible and conclude that they are Jewish, and (B) those who read it and conclude that they are Christians. (C) There are those who read the Bible and conclude that the Bible is against gays, and (D) those who read it and conclude that it is not against gays.

Because of this, anything I say online is going to be problematic with someone on that chart.

But I've concluded that although I keep MOST of my political opinions to myself, and simply publically support that people should study and learn and form intelligent opinions, I can no longer be completely silent on the issue of Gays in Society.

I am in support of the right for Gays to Marry. And I am now less apologetic about this stance than I used to be.

And I'm sorry that this probably disappoints you. But I can understand why you felt concerned and disappointed. But this happens to be where I am at.

I do love our friendship greatly, and always have. (Signed, me)

I'm proud of you for standing up for your beliefs and feel sorry for those that think that is wrong.

By the way, the Kabbalat services for Temple Akiba are Feb 26, Mar 26 and April 30th, if you are free one of those days to go.

I'm starting to picture two public "plunge off the cliffs" posts in my head: (1) The first, likely soon, which says publically much of what I started to compose in reply above that reads: I support Gay Marriage. (2) The public post that says, "I'm Jewish. I know many of you knew me when I was Christian, but I'm Jewish now. And Always Will Be."

I knew that (2) would happen someday, but I hadn't really thought about (1) having to be posted. I'm likely to post this weekend. On the public side. *eep*

Why?

Keep youself to yourself as you choose. Don't let another's opinion, or hope, or desire influence you in this matter.

You've probably read my assessment of the issue(s) and my reasoning come at it from a completely different perspective. (I support gays as individual freedom, but not gay marriage because of the state's interests.)

You don't have to take any plunge until you decide to.

"EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO BE WRONG." They can categorize you wrongly, and you don't have to correct them. They can choose their opinions based on their incomplete knowledge, just as I have mine based on my incomplete knowledge.

You are a wonderful and unique person. (I'm just unique. ;) Don't let others pressure you to do anything. FTITCTAJ.

Based on what I know, I believe the Bible is against anal sex (possibly oral sex also) rather that homosexuality. It makes more sense when you read it. You've got to remember that we only recently have a germ theory for infection and disease. They only had observation of 'if you do XXX, then you get YYY'. So promoting sexual health means virgins until married, no anal intercourse, avoiding menstral cycles, single partner bonding, etc.

Promoting civil (pyschological & cultural) health gives us a lot of the other laws. Enough of my rants.

hugs,
remember you are a smart and good looking woman,
Wilhelm vF

Why? Because I disagree with you. Because I disagree with opponents to Gay Marriage. Because I find it an Imperative in my Own Opinion, that I stand up publically FOR Gay Marriage.

Then you should stand up. A lion cannot live as a lap cat.

hugs
WvF

"Single partner bonding"? Please let Abraham, Jacob and King Solomon know as they did have multiple wives and actually Biblically speaking polygamy is practiced just as often as "single partner bonding". ;)

Also, for the purposes of the Old Testament verse that pork and shellfish eating fundamentalists like to quote as why the homosexuals are going to burn in hell; the words and sections of that has to do with cleanliness for the temple (as you said) and "abomination" as used by the folks who brought us the King James translation was really the same sort of "unclean" as contact with a menstruating woman. Clean up, kill a dove or two, and all is well---more or less.

Of course the one thing I can't understand is atheists who might be against same-sex marriage. I mean what Bible are they reading? :)

But anyway Eilidh stick to your guns! In 20 years or less this struggle will be looked upon like the civil rights struggles of the 1950's and beyond.

There are plenty of Jewish folk who are for people who love each other to marry. Christian or Jewish, why shouldn't you? :)

I support you. I happen to agree with you, but I also support Wilhelm and his right to express his opinion if he wants to. :)

This is such a sensitive issue, both from religious and legal perspectives, that I don't see how talking about it could possibly do any harm. The more open-minded, tolerant dialog we can have on the subject from both sides, the better.

I imagine people who oppose gay marriage in some parts of California often feel the same way people who support gay marriage do when they express their beliefs in other parts of California (or the rest of the country). There are plenty of inaccurate and often cruel labels for people on both sides of the argument--from pedophiles, polygamists, and f*ggots to Nazis, fascists, and bigots. It's not fair that we use these words to describe people, because in the vast majority of circumstances, it's not true. The more communication we have about the subject, the more we break those stereotypes down. The more understanding we have. But to communicate about something, you must have an opinion, and be prepared to discuss it.

I think this ties in very closely with your conversion, not from a subject-matter perspective, but from a communication perspective. At some point, perhaps sooner rather than later, you're going to be faced with your own "coming out." You've already begun the process with your own friends and family (and, again, I'm really glad I get to read this journal and experience your reactions to it along the way). Even if it's a facebook update that says "I'm in the process of converting to Judaism. I'm willing to discuss it if you want to." or an update to Religious Views: Converting to Judaism, or you wait until you're all done and change it to Jewish, you'll be out and proud someday. It's extremely important that you feel comfortable talking about this, and feel like it's safe for you to express your beliefs.

So, yes. Update your status. Update your views. Update the hell out of everything. You should be accepted and loved for who you are, just like you accept and love your friends even when they disagree with you. It might involve some difficult conversations, but I have every confidence that you'll do your best to come through it successfully and gracefully.

Very well said.

WvF

I understand wanting to wait until it's official, but as far as I'm concerned you're Jewish. If we want to go into "degrees" of Jewishness, you're more Jewish than I am, and you probably know more about it too.
Also, have you ever heard of any context in which women count for minyan? In my experience those orthodox enough to care about minyan don't count women, and those reform enough to change the religion to be gender balanced don't care about if they have a minyan.

I assume a minyan is required to complete the public aspect of a conversion? Wikipedia just says it's a quorum of 10, or sometimes 30 men, with details on specific holidays and rituals, but not on conversion.

According to same article, women are included in a minyan when 3 of them are needed to recite a zimmun. I don't know if that has anything to do with organized public worship or if that's an in-the-home thing.

Nope. A minyan is "ten" and is required for certain portions of a prayer or worship service. It's an obligation that individuals fulfill for the community. If the scriptures shouldn't be read aloud to the congregation unless there is a minyan present, then we all have an obligation to one another to help fill that requirement. It's an effort to avoid being lazy "No one really needs me there for services." Actually, yes we do need you, because you matter to the whole community.

"Adult Jewish men" always "count" in the counting of a minyan. Boys who have become bar mitzvah are "now men" and they count. In many/most Reform and/or Progressive and many/some Conservative congregations, Jewish women count too. Very few (if any) Orthodox gatherings count women.

For people who care about whether I've completed my conversion process, I don't count until the process is complete, the same way the children studying for bar/bat mitzvah don't count until they've completed their studies. [There are some exceptions, like if there are 9 adults and 1 boy/girl still studying for bar/bat mitzvah, the child can "count."]

Interesting.
WvF

(a) There are plenty of congregations that do care about minyans, and still accept women in the counting. (b) I've never been much for determining "how Jewish are you." That's a matter for personal consideration and then community consideration. On the personal level, yup I consider myself Jewish... with the caveat that I want to complete my conversion process because it matters to me. On the community level, I'm not considered "Jewish yet" but certainly I'm accepted into the community. And once the conversion process is complete, I'll have been "Jewish all along" anyways, so timeframes are funny things.

Even Jewisher than you were Jewish previously... *head spins*

110% authentic grade-A organic Jew grown in the shade of a temple! Harvested with the finest care and consideration! Guaranteed at least 30 years of free ranging before brought straight to your altar! Never frozen, freeze-dried, or fed beef! :)

*headdesk*

Seriously, though, I think including or not including yourself in a minyan is a very valuable, and simple, way of declaring to yourself and the world that not only are you Jewish, but you're just as equipped and prepared to contribute to your chosen community as anyone else. Props to you!

...Aaand now I reread and hope you don't take that as me making fun of your conversion process. It's just how my brain works sometimes--I think religion should be fun! as well as serious. I really *do* respect your process and choices... I just had the snark itch and indulged it without thinking. :)

No offense taken. I enjoyed the humor. :)

"That's an odd goal, isn't it? *le sigh*"

Yeah, it's an odd goal, but I've been awaiting the day when you are Jewish. I'm expecting a big party and if there isn't one I'll throw one for you anyway! I think you should wrap up your loose ends because I think it will make you very happy.

On the whole issue... I'm from the Christians who support gay marriage camp.

With love,
(From the guy who's supposed to remind you of your roots)

I'll never forget my root, love, and I appreciate that you're there for me. :)

And yes, there will be a party. PAR-TAAAY. :)

Being supportive of the rights of others is, so I was led to believe, JUST the sort of thing that feisty troublemaker Jesus would've done...

He was a Jew too.

The Right-Winger in question is a water-headed mouth-breather with a deep and abiding need to get his ass kicked for wishing felonies on not only gays and lesbians, but the healthy activity for many a heterosexual couple (especially after some Jose' Cuervo...).

Personally, I kinda liked the "for shame" thing you did the first time around...

So,your friend gave you a frowny face for desiring everyone to get along irrespective of the funny little book of god versions 1.0 and 2.0 (i.e.- the Old and New Testaments, respectively).

'Oh noes' indeed. Lay the smack down sistah!

Dear lady, you ARE a Jew. Unless some Orthodox dude schleps up to you and starts lambasting you for converting, don't even give it another thought. Switch your FB profile question now and watch who is a true friend and who is a reactionary close-minded troglodytic simpleton. I'd LOVE to see who dumbs down for this one...

In the end, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Pagan, Hindu, Taoist, or (if we count in this august assemblage of beliefs as we are defined as rather a dis- or non-belief) Atheists should all judged based on how we treat one another, and not how our giant bearded imaginary friend tells us to.

Well said

WvF

I've been at converting for a long time, and all I will say is that Rabbi said quite a while ago that it's okay if I identify as Jewish as long as I am honest when necessary (i.e., do not take an aliyah, do not let myself be counted in a minyan, etc., etc). Of course, your rabbi may have a differing opinion and I am not sure about what denomination you are converting under, but I know you have been at it for a while.

Oddly enough, this past weekend was the first time someone approached me to possibly take an aliyah, and I had to graciously decline. Seems some of the folks in synagogue see me there enough and so often, they're already assuming I must be done already. I was flattered. And the congregation used to be affiliated with the Conservative movement, but became unaffiliated with any denomination and hired a Reform rabbi. Most people will likely consider me Reform when it's all done.

Well, there's always "Deist" as a transitional step. ;-)

*laughs* Well, I've never considered myself that. It was an obvious transition from "Protestant Christian" to "raised Christian, Jewish at heart" to "in the middle of my conversion."